“A Full Unknown” is a departure for Edward Norton, though he’s fast to level out he’s performed kind-hearted souls earlier than — together with, surprisingly, referencing Smoochy the Rhino from “Loss of life to Smoochy,” an early, surprising, comedic zag on this interview from Norton whereas discussing his buzzed-about efficiency as people legend Pete Seeger.
And he’s proper. He has performed, as he places it, “respectable individuals” — he’s most positively not at all times in that wiseacre vibe of Worm in “Rounders” or flirting with the emotional rage and distress of Monty in Spike Lee’s “twenty fifth Hour.” However his interpretation of Pete Seeger is exclusive in that he performs him with this true north earnestness … however with an undercut of passive aggressiveness that comes biting by when Timotheé Chalamet’s Bob Dylan does one thing Pete doesn’t see eye to eye with. This occurs very often in the course of the occasions of “A Full Unknown.” (Issues like, you realize, taking part in an electrical guitar at a people competition. Pete Seeger did not like that.)
In “A Full Unknown,” director James Mangold drops us into the New York Metropolis people scene of the early ’60s, following the rise of Bob Dylan, but additionally of different artists that formed the tradition, like Joan Baez (Monica Barbaro) and, in fact, Pete Seeger. This all culminates on the Newport Folks Competition, the place Dylan — famously or infamously, relying in your perspective — determined he needed to eschew people music for a extra rock sound, which each delighted and offended his followers, once more, relying in your perspective.
For his half, it’s fairly evident Norton cherished working with Mangold and compares him, usually, to the late Miloš Forman, whom Norton labored with on 1996’s “The Individuals vs. Larry Flynt.” Norton was additionally filled with reward for his costar Chalamet as Bob Dylan (calling Chalamet “a subset of 1”), which is notable as a result of, over the course of his profession, Norton hasn’t precisely been timid when talking his thoughts. If doesn’t actually imagine one thing, he’s actually not going to say it.
Norton hopes this is not going to simply spark extra curiosity in Dylan, but additionally Seeger, who Norton feels is fading from the identical cultural zeitgeist he was as soon as such an enormous power inside. I argued that individuals do know Pete Seeger’s music, they simply don’t notice it — he’s written quite a few very well-known songs made hits by different musical artists. However Norton shortly counters with a narrative about his pal, director Spike Jonze, who assumed Norton was taking part in Bob Seger.
The next interview has been edited and condensed for size and readability.
IndieWire: I’ve by no means watched you play a personality fairly like this earlier than. However I don’t know should you agree with that.
Edward Norton: I don’t know, I believe Smoochy the Rhino and Pete Seeger have fairly quite a few issues in widespread as guitar gamers and mission-driven lefties. I’m not saying this in a great way, I by no means relate any position to some other position. I don’t really feel connectivity between virtually something. I get it, you do sure issues which can be in a sure gear like “American Historical past X” or “twenty fifth Hour” or one thing, however to me, “The Painted Veil” or “Holding the Religion” or taking part in Alan Isaacman in “Larry Flynt,” who’s very a lot the foil.
However I’ve actually had my time in what I might name “respectable individuals.” Or people who find themselves within the considerate aspect of the equation. However, to me, there’s no one like Pete Seeger. No person.
How so?
Timothée and I had a deeply shared, let’s name it, concern about the entire enterprise. The deeper your respect is for Dylan and Seeger and Joan Baez, in a method it virtually begins to throw off this inconceivable commonplace of, why are we doing this? And I believe James Mangold was the energy all of us wanted within the sense that his capability to articulate the “why” of the entire thing and to guarantee everyone this isn’t about doing a color-by-numbers biopic about any of those individuals. It’s about wanting on the messy collisions and paradoxes and multidimensional relationships that produced this wild, emergent cultural second.
And Jim [Mangold] was evaluating it to “Amadeus.” He was evaluating it to “Hair.” He was evaluating it to issues that have been so totally different from what I’d name biographical touchpoints that it began to get actually attention-grabbing for everyone. And I believe it liberated Timothée. It liberated me. Timothée and I talked about the truth that each of us have been realizing that we have been within the rabbit gap of aficionado analysis, however the general public we all know aren’t that immersed in Dylan’s music anymore. And positively not Pete Seeger’s. You notice perhaps it’s a possibility to place a lightweight on this era and the way superb these artists have been and get reconnected to them.
I might argue individuals are immersed in Pete Seeger’s music however they simply don’t understand it.
Sure. However I’d say you’re within the slender membership of actual cultural erudition.
However everybody is aware of The Byrds’ model of “Flip! Flip! Flip!” It’s in “Forest Gump,” which is on cable 3 times a day.
I’m going to offer you a humorous instance. Spike Jonze is a very good pal of mine, and I informed him what I used to be doing, and he was like, “Wow, are you doing the music your self?” I mentioned sure. And he goes, “Are you doing ‘Evening Strikes’ and ‘In opposition to the Wind’ and ‘Outdated Time Rock & Roll’?”
Oh, no. He thought you have been taking part in Bob Seger.
Yeah, I’m like, “Pete Seeger, not Bob Seger!” And he was like, “Wait, who’s Pete Seeger?” And I’m like, “Pete Seeger, the people singer! Not Bob Seger,” and we have been laughing and all the pieces. I talked to Stephen Colbert. I did his present. He got here as much as me and mentioned, “There was a second the place I simply began weeping as a result of I so love and revere Pete Seeger.” In the event you can see the portrait of people who find themselves aspiring to do one thing with their lives in numerous methods, you notice all of them set an ordinary of inventive aspiration that I form of assume we’re getting slightly extra distant from proper now. We’re dangerously near the entire thought of inventive endeavor being consumed throughout the thought of content material as collateral. And the itemizing of it, breaking it up, brief type, the clipping it out.
Taking a look at what Jim has really made, as a complete piece, one of many issues I used to be moved by was the motion of an period … all of it was geared toward making an attempt to say stuff. It was geared toward making an attempt to drag a lever on the tradition a technique or one other. And so they did. For a interval, they did. It’s ironic, I don’t assume superheroes in capes are literally going to reach and save us. They selected to take that vitality and lever it into the civil rights motion and the antiwar motion. And so they raised the banner of their era and bought individuals rallying round concepts. And it’s fairly heroic.
That kind of protest music appears gone proper now.
Yeah, you realize, I believe David Bowie was proper again within the late ‘80s, observing that a number of the most culturally attention-grabbing music was hip-hop. If you had “The Message” and Public Enemy’s “Combat the Energy,” there was a interval. We’ve had waves. It’s not just like the early ‘60s was the final time that you simply’ve seen political and culturally engaged commentary by music in any respect. However I do assume proper now it’s a good query. The place is that?
If you talked about Spike Jonze complicated Bob Seger and Pete Seeger, keep in mind in 2006 when Springsteen did the “Seeger Periods” tour? That very same factor occurred. Lots of people have been asking why Bruce Springsteen was celebrating the music of Bob Seger.
Oh, yeah, I went to the primary present. I drove right down to Asbury Park from New York to see opening evening of the “Seeger Periods” tour in one of many outdated Asbury beachside auditoriums.
Oh yeah, Conference Corridor.
Yeah, that’s the place he did it. I nonetheless have footage. And Bruce, to me, he’s 100%, no query in any way, the Pete Seeger of our era and our time. He’s the man who actually really took up the mantle. Not simply clearly singing songs about working individuals, singing concerning the emotional and financial plight of working individuals and their struggles. However he additionally took up the flag of political engagement. Means greater than Dylan. And I’d argue greater than anybody, since Pete Seeger, Bruce Springsteen has been the troubadour of the working man and in addition an unapologetic deployer of music towards political progressive humanism. He’s a power. And it’s no shock to me in any way he did a Seeger file like that as a result of Bruce has lengthy been one of many deacons within the Pete Seeger church.
Woody Guthrie writes “This Land Is Your Land,” which was the “Born within the USA” of its time. A seemingly patriotic music with a subversive message beneath, proper?
It was written as a response to “God Bless America.”
Completely. And minimize to 2009, the place Pete Seeger and John Lewis are actually the one two individuals deeply concerned within the civil rights motion virtually from the get-go who’re nonetheless alive to witness and attend Barack Obama’s inauguration.
I simply watched the clip of Seeger and Springsteen taking part in “This Land Is Your Land” on the inauguration.
He performs his pal’s music with Bruce Springsteen on the inauguration of Obama! At age 90. It’s completely unbelievable, and shifting to me, that his life unfold that form of music as an instrument of change and he really survived to see that second. It was freezing that day, keep in mind?
Yeah, it’s apparent watching the clip once more.
Bruce informed me he saved making an attempt to get Pete to placed on extra heat garments. As a result of should you see that, he’s simply sporting his flannel shirt. I’m undecided I must be quoted on this, however I believe Bruce informed me he mentioned one thing like, “You’ve bought to place a coat on, Pete.” And Pete mentioned, “Nothing could make me chilly right this moment, Bruce. I’m lit up from the within.”
It’s attention-grabbing we’re discussing a movie about Bob Dylan, and when “Greetings from Asbury Park” got here out, Springsteen was being known as “the following Dylan.” However as you mentioned, he extra embodies Pete Seeger.
Far more so. However perhaps a mix of each, in some sense. “Greetings” has “For You”…
“Mary Queen of Arkansas.”
There’s the reverence for Dylan’s lyricism for positive.
“Rising Up” can also be perhaps an excellent instance of that.
Yeah, I believe within the whole measure of Bruce, as an artist, his ethos may be very related to Seeger’s.
They’re making a film about Bruce. I notice it’s about “Nebraska,” however you would additionally pop up in that as Pete Seeger.
[Laughs] I’m undecided how a lot “Nebraska” Bruce was interacting with Pete.
Look, I’ve been giving performances and performing with different individuals for 30 years professionally, and longer earlier than. I’d put the zone Timothée was in on this proper up there within the higher ranks of what I’ve been round. He’s in such a deeply related, critical, immersive state. Having him be there, radiated outward to a dedication by everyone to remain deeply invested in a sustained phantasm and a dedication to the phantasm whereas we have been doing it. I’m undecided how many individuals might or ought to even try and play Dylan.
In my very own view, he’s near a subset of 1 when it comes to who might or ought to have completed this at this explicit level. I can’t consider anyone else who would have pulled this off, and I believe he pulled it off. It’s a really daring factor to say you’re going to symbolize Bob Dylan. I do know Timothée, and I don’t see him in there. Issues he’s going by — you realize, the way in which forces come at you if you begin to get well-known for one thing — is well-aligned together with his personal experiences proper now, however I believe he bought about as misplaced in that half as you may ever aspire to be as an actor and it was actually, actually cool.
That’s excessive reward from you. I don’t know you, however I do know your character sufficient that you simply wouldn’t say that should you didn’t imply it.
I’ve lots of associates in music and everybody I do know who has seen it — and I do know fairly a couple of individuals who know Dylan who have been skeptical, telling me they have been disinclined to see it as a result of they didn’t assume they’d be capable of let go and immerse — ended up strolling out in tears.
There’s a well-known second within the movie involving Pete Seeger allegedly eager to take an ax to the facility provide when Dylan performed electrical on the Newport Folks Competition. I’ve learn so many accounts which can be all totally different sufficient this could possibly be a “Rashomon” fashion second.
I’d say, to counter that, I believe the city fable of all of it got here out of informal feedback individuals made — and Dylan says it in Scorsese’s doc, “Somebody informed me Pete Seeger tried to get an ax and that disturbed me enormously as a result of I revered him a lot.” I really don’t assume there may be that a lot “Rashomon,” I believe it’s fairly clear. Plenty of individuals have mentioned, the explanation the ax factor might be in individuals’s head is the work group with its logs and its axes have been sitting offstage. Some individuals assume he might need yelled, “Goddammit, if I had an ax I’d minimize the twine!,” however there’s not one single one that was there who has a shred of doubt about that by no means occurred. He by no means grabbed an ax.
However, on the similar time, even his daughter mentioned to me, it’s uncontestable he blew a gasket, and he bought indignant in a method she’s by no means seen him get indignant earlier than or since. He completely went on the board and tried to get them to take it down. [What’s in the film] may be very aligned with what individuals there shared with us and it feels emotionally true to me. It’s actually attention-grabbing, I noticed Jim and I have been each mentees of Miloš Forman. Miloš was his professor at Columbia and Miloš was the closest to a mentor I had from the “Larry Flynt” interval and ever after.
And also you talked about “Amadeus” earlier.
Yeah! It’s actually humorous, I’ve labored for lots of nice administrators and stuff, the way in which Jim approaches making a movie and the quantity of room he provides actors — at the same time as the author of the script –—he actually does say, “Go on the market and mine for gold. Convey me a lot extra Pete Seeger than I might ever use and throw all of it in there for me and belief me to type out the nuggets you discover me.” When somebody is assured as he’s, but additionally genuinely enthusiastic about discovery? I believe motion pictures like this are actually deceptively exhausting. In lots of methods, I believe Miloš Forman was actually appreciated all the way in which from “Fireman’s Ball,” and never simply by “Cuckoo’s Nest,” however “Hair” and “Ragtime” and “Larry Flynt.” Miloš was the king of the film that was cultural anthropology.
“Man on the Moon” is one other instance.
Yeah! Sure. He was so good at these movies. And I hadn’t had an expertise form of since then… I used to be very younger, however I keep in mind on “Larry Flynt” going, ‘The best way this man works, he’s so totally different from any method I thought of the way you make movie.’ Miloš was this man, he used to say to me, “It’s all casting and enhancing and, in-between, you’re simply gathering clay. It’s all simply uncooked materials. I’m nice at casting and I’m nice at sculpting.”
I actually really feel Jim Mangold. He additionally has Miloš’ lack of pretention about authorship. I believe we’re actually on this period the place we lionize the auteur, and Jim has this fantastically unpretentious view of what directing is about. He’s very very similar to Miloš in that sense. It’s very totally different from the restricted model of authorship that I believe we’ve developed round making motion pictures. I discovered it so refreshing. I actually do assume these form of plotless movies that you’ve got the boldness to say I’m going to drop you thru a cultural second and immerse you in it, it’s form of ballsy. It’s ballsy to claim you may maintain individuals and I really feel Jim has grown into being that form of Miloš Forman director.
It’s attention-grabbing you point out the casting and the sculpting. I simply rewatched “Copland,” and James Mangold does an ideal job doing that and getting these nice performances — clearly, that’s early in his profession.
Yeah! And it’s not like Jim isn’t one of the vital profitable administrators in Hollywood, however the way in which he’s sensible, it’s not the hyper-controlled, OCD, micro-managerial definition of auteurship that we’ve form of bought. I believe he comes out of this faculty that I name the Miloš Forman faculty. For me, that’s why I’m a commit of Miloš’ movies from “Fireman’s Ball” on. You have a look at it and say, how is that this working so properly? What’s going on right here? How is he in a position to arrange very non-expositional situations and also you’re so delighted by them? It’s a form of alchemy that’s, not more durable, all the pieces is its personal factor, however I really feel like, on this one, he actually hit a brand new excessive bar. I’d put this movie in there with these Miloš movies.
Searchlight Photos will launch “A Full Unknown” in theaters on Wednesday, December 25.