When Elizabeth Meriwether instructed fellow “New Woman” scribe Kim Rosenstock to hearken to the podcast “Dying for Intercourse,” Rosenstock was hesitant.
“It was June 2020, deep in one of many darkest occasions of COVID, a very tough second,” Rosenstock recalled in a dialog with IndieWire. “There was an earthquake that occurred, RBG had simply died, and Liz was like, ‘Hey, do you need to hearken to this podcast a couple of girl who dies of most cancers?’ I used to be like, ‘Yeah, I don’t assume that’s going to be good for my psychological well being proper now.’ And he or she was like, ‘No, it’s additionally all about intercourse.’ I used to be like, ‘What? OK, ship me the hyperlink.’”
Meriwether and Rosenstock, together with thousands and thousands of others, had been utterly hooked by Molly Kochan’s story, as instructed by means of conversations with Molly’s greatest buddy Nikki Boyer proper up till Kochan’s loss of life in 2019. The 2 function co-showrunners on FX’s restricted collection of the identical identify, the place Molly (Michelle Williams) embarks on a journey of sexual exploration within the ultimate years of her life, with Nikki (Jenny Slate) by her facet.
“The podcast simply does one thing,” Rosenstock mentioned. “It grabs you, and it and it pulls you into the story of this stunning friendship between these two ladies, but in addition this take a look at an individual throughout this a part of their life that usually we don’t actually have entry to. The bravery and vulnerability that Molly confirmed by permitting herself to be documented on this situation was simply so gorgeous to me. I had by no means witnessed that. I had by no means seen somebody in that stage of dying, and the truth that she allowed herself to be recorded all through it, and we are able to hear her voice, all of it felt so particular and alive and unbelievable to me.”
Rosenstock mentioned that as a lot because the podcast is one girl’s expertise (and wild intercourse tales), what struck her was that it was in the end “essentially the most profound exploration of the human situation” — “this expertise of a girl who’s each dying and coming alive on the identical time.” She was drawn to Boyer (who serves as govt producer on the present) and to the “love story between two buddies,” which makes the collection so resonant.
This interview has been edited for size and readability.
IndieWire: What was the method like of adapting the podcast — versus perhaps a ebook or play?
Kim Rosenstock: What the podcast does that’s so particular and magical is it’s these two actual individuals, and it’s their voices, and it’s the intimacy of that that’s so shifting. So how will we adapt this right into a story for tv the place clearly we don’t have the 2 actual individuals, and we don’t have that intimacy of listening to their dialog in your ear? How will we make it really feel that intimate, and the way will we give audiences the sensation that we had listening to the podcast, whereas making our personal utterly new factor?
The primary factor I used to be asking myself was “Who’s Nikki?” We all know Molly so properly by the top of this podcast. However for the needs of the difference, it felt to me like we needed to actually construct out this character of Nikki and actually inform the story of her as a caretaker, and what it means to handle any person by means of this sickness, what it means to for her personal life, the sacrifices that she has to make, what it really entails emotionally, past simply being any person’s greatest buddy.
Did your playwriting expertise make it easier to with adapting this story?
The truth that we [Rosenstock and Elizabeth Meriwether] are each playwrights and we began out in theater… each of us had written stuff that went to some extra heightened expressionistic locations. We had been capable of faucet into that in adapting this story. One of many issues that we utilized that to was Molly’s expertise of intercourse. How will we dramatize what it looks like for her to have intercourse? We’re used to seeing intercourse scenes, however how can we present this otherwise? How can we really take the viewers on the journey of what her emotional expertise is throughout these intercourse scenes? We then known as on these instruments, these extra hyper-realistic modes of storytelling. Particularly because the present goes on and we get to the ultimate levels, it will get very theatrical. At one level it looks like an enormous play occurring in her room.
How did you deliver the actual Nikki Boyer into the storytelling on the collection?
Nikki Boyer is wonderful and was one among our EPs. [She] was very concerned within the course of and gave us her blessing to do our personal factor. However within the podcast she requested the questions. She’s the listener; she’s the reactor. They’re speaking about issues which have occurred, and the enjoyment is listening to them unpack and delight within the particulars of what occurred, however no person desires to look at a tv present about two individuals speaking about what occurred. Our problem was exhibiting these issues after which exhibiting each of their expertise going by means of it.
The opposite factor for us that we found alongside the way in which was Molly had, sooner or later in her journey of getting all these sexual encounters, realized that what she actually wished was really a deep emotional reference to any person. She says at one level, “I feel I really need to fall in love,” Sadly, her life ended earlier than she actually received to have that sort of a relationship with any person. However for us — and we talked rather a lot about this with Nikki as properly — in our present, we wished to offer her that. So one of many issues we did in our adaptation was we took a few the fellows within the podcast who she has extra emotional encounters with, and we type of created this composite character, this neighbor character out of them [played by Rob Delaney] for her to have type of messed-up, darkish, very completely different sort of BDSM rom-com in the course of this story. That was one thing that we discovered alongside the way in which.
The present goes to some darkish locations, particularly with Molly’s trauma.
Her trauma is that this info that we get three-quarters of the way in which by means of the podcast. For our present, we wished to begin off understanding that info and focus extra on her really studying to take a look at that trauma and determine how one can course of it and heal from it — and what therapeutic seems to be like, as a result of therapeutic will not be a linear expertise. Therapeutic definitely seems to be completely different for everyone. We actually wished to indicate what it seems to be wish to course of one thing that occurred to you in childhood as an grownup and below these situations, and that’s what the precise Molly was doing.
I feel it’s so stunning, as a result of she makes this discovery that intercourse was the way in which to therapeutic for her, as a result of intercourse was the factor she says made her cut up off from herself as a baby. She is making an attempt to place herself again collectively, and she or he realizes alongside the way in which why intercourse was the factor that she wanted to make use of to do this. It wouldn’t essentially be the factor for everybody, but it surely was particularly for her. It’s not about, “Oh, I’m healed, I’m higher.” We wished to ensure we weren’t exhibiting it as an exorcism, however extra of an integration of this a part of herself into the remainder of herself.
What was Nikki’s response once you got here to her concerning the collection adaptation?
I bear in mind being actually nervous about giving her the primary draft of the pilot that I wrote, as a result of that is her actual story, you recognize, and the principle observe I received again from her was, “Can you modify that identify?” [Referring to one of the people in the podcast who is now a character in the show.] That was it. She simply trusted us. Lots of people wished to choice this materials, and she or he selected Liz as a result of she simply had a intestine feeling that that was the best individual, this was the best group of individuals.
In direction of the top, it was actually vital to us to get this stuff medically proper or precisely painting the actual expertise of being in hospice and in these ultimate levels of this sickness. Nikki had been there with Molly by means of the entire thing, so I’d name Nikki at like, 11 o’clock in the course of writing — she was like, “I’m right here at any time for you.” We might simply sit on the cellphone, and she or he would inform me precisely what she went by means of and what occurred. I used to be at all times amazed that she was keen to be so beneficiant, not simply together with her time, however emotionally — to return into that point in her life, which could be very painful, for the sake of the storytelling.
How has your working relationship with Elizabeth Meriwether advanced?
I’ve labored with Liz for therefore a few years in so many various methods. She was the star of my first play that I ever wrote. She’s an incredible performer, she’s very humorous, however I don’t know that she acted an excessive amount of after. I moved to LA to work on “New Woman.” I had by no means written for tv earlier than, and I discovered how one can write tv engaged on “New Woman,” after which I labored on “Single Dad and mom,” which Liz additionally created with J.J. Philbin, after which she known as me to work on this. We’ve had these completely different phases of our friendship and our careers collectively, and it was simply very nice and thrilling to have the ability to totally make one thing together with her — and particularly this story that’s about these two ladies who’ve been buddies for over 20 years, we’ve been buddies for over 20 years. It was good to make a present about friendship with an outdated buddy.
The podcast is only a slice of the total expertise that Nikki and Molly are going by means of. You’ve spoken about pinning down the tone of this present — inform me somewhat bit extra about that course of and perhaps what did and didn’t work alongside the way in which.
Sure, the podcast has a tone of its personal. We had been very drawn to that, and we wished the present to have that feeling, you could be laughing and crying on the identical time. Liz and I are each historically comedy writers, and particularly sitcom, so we now have that muscle reminiscence from all these years writing jokes. I feel we’ve each pitched 1000’s of dick joke alts in our lives, and I wish to say we introduced that to this venture. FX was so extremely supportive of us making this present no matter we felt prefer it wanted to be, and that was big, having our studio and our community each supporting our our need to discover the tone and discover style. Once we began, we had been like, “OK, this must be comedy. We mentioned it’s a comedy,” but it surely’s additionally so many different issues.
This story sort of veers by way of the way it feels from second to second, similar to life does. Similar to this expertise of a girl who’s each dying and coming alive on the identical time, it feels prefer it’s many issues directly… We weren’t making an attempt to put in writing joke-joke-joke, extra looking for moments of humor and levity and pleasure naturally the place they sprung up in Molly’s emotional journey, and to then enable her and the present to sink into moments of despair and darkness the place the character would do this.
How do you stability the comedy and drama of the collection, making intercourse one thing actual and vital for Molly with out letting the humor overtake it?
It was actually vital to us with the intercourse to by no means make what individuals’s sexual preferences had been, or sexual needs had been the supply of the joke. The comedy was extra in simply the human interactions between individuals earlier than and after and through intercourse, however not about what they preferred, by no means to be making enjoyable of what individuals preferred — and to truly be celebrating that, to be exhibiting this broad spectrum of what intercourse could be in a method that felt actually respectful of all these alternative ways of feeling pleasure and feeling desired. As this present goes on and she or he will get sicker, we wished to ensure we weren’t shying away from that, and that we weren’t romanticizing that.
It was laborious. The ultimate episode, she’s actually dying. So how on earth might we make this really feel humorous like this? It nonetheless has to really feel just like the present. And we discovered issues just like the hospice nurse who’s actually jazzed about loss of life and speaking about it, we discovered pure methods to proceed, to deliver the humor by means of.
“Dying for Intercourse” is now streaming on Hulu and Disney+.