It’s exhausting to get a movie like “The way to Shoot a Ghost,” the brand new quick movie directed by Charlie Kaufman and written by American poet Eva H.D., observed at a pageant like Venice. It’s a brief, in any case, and people are sometimes sidelined at festivals regardless of sturdy programming that means a unique story. It’s exhausting to get audiences within the room for them, for one.
However Kaufman, Eva H.D., and the manufacturing staff (together with singer/songwriter Halsey, who backed it together with her firm Umade) behind his extraordinary new quick did handle a pink carpet look on September 1 forward of their premiere — and forward of Benny Safdie’s “The Smashing Machine” in the identical theater. Exterior the Sala Grande, Eva H.D. stood up for Palestine, brandishing an indication that mentioned, “We Are All an Viewers to Genocide,” amid a pageant the place the struggle on Gaza weighed closely — and continues to after Alexander Payne’s jury awarded the Palestine-centered drama “The Voice of Hind Rajab” the runner-up prize earlier than Jim Jarmusch’s Golden Lion winner “Father Mom Sister Brother” was introduced.
The subsequent day, IndieWire sat down with Kaufman and Eva H.D. in a cramped, airless room within the Palazzo del Casinò on the Lido to debate “The way to Shoot a Ghost.” It facilities on a translator and a photographer, each of whom are useless, wandering Athens, Greece. They’re performed by Oscar nominee Jessie Buckley and discovery Josef Akiki.
Life is healthier when filmmaker and author Charlie Kaufman is in it. In 2020, he launched each the 720-page tome of a novel “Antkind,” an business satire about many issues together with a movie critic, and the dream-logic, horror-adjacent Netflix characteristic “I’m Considering of Ending Issues,” loosely primarily based on an Iain Reid horror novel.
That movie contained a poem, “Bonedog,” learn by Buckley and written by Eva H.D., who additionally wrote the lyrical stanzas for Kaufman’s 2023 cell-phone-shot quick “Jackals and Fireflies.” They’re again collectively once more for his newest movie, the 27-minute “The way to Shoot a Ghost,” which premiered in Venice out of competitors. (5 of these minutes are finish credit, solely additional emphasizing the burden and ambition of this uniquely hypnotizing quick.)
“The way to Shoot a Ghost” additionally reteams the “Being John Malkovich” author with “Ending Issues” star Buckley, who performs a ghost roaming the streets of Athens and tumbling by elliptical remembrances and nights of partying and taxi-cab rides with the also-dead Akiki. In a mix of avenue pictures, archival footage from Athens’ historical past, and unique narrative materials shot on location by Michał Dymek (“The Lady with the Needle,” “EO”), this evocative meditation on reminiscence and loss recollects the hybrid fiction works of Chris Marker or the ruminative, temporal poetry of Alain Resnais’ “Hiroshima, Mon Amour,” written by writer Marguerite Duras.
Put up-Venice, “The way to Shoot a Ghost” will play extra festivals, to be introduced, earlier than later debuting on the free library streaming service Kanopy. In IndieWire’s dialog with Charlie Kaufman and Eva H.D., we touched on the ecosystem of quick movies, this one’s connections to his previous work, and the place “Synecdoche, New York” — Kaufman’s characteristic directing debut from 2008 — landed on the New York Occasions’ listing of the 100 Finest Movies of the Century. (It didn’t, however it was an also-ran in a broader listing of 500 chosen by readers.) Opinions have been blended on the time, however that deep-dive into the widening psychological abyss of a hypochondriac playwright (performed by Philip Seymour Hoffman) has solely grown in esteem over time. Roger Ebert additionally picked it as the most effective film of the aughts.
This interview has been edited for size.
IndieWire: Eva, it sounds such as you weren’t acquainted with Charlie as a filmmaker whenever you met years in the past at an artists’ residency in New Hampshire, earlier than “I’m Considering of Ending Issues.”
Eva H.D.: There was this space of this residency that did give a bit of little bit of an autobiography about everyone, however I’d by no means seen it. New folks have been at all times coming in. Others appeared to know issues, like they wrote this guide or that guide, however it’s as a result of there was this little nook the place folks discovered issues that have been posted, however I hadn’t learn any of it.
Charlie Kaufman: You had seen “Being John Malkovich.”
Eva H.D.: I did, however I didn’t learn about the remaining. He mentioned he was writing a novel. I believed [that he was only a novelist]. I’m a sucker.
Charlie, “I’m Considering of Ending Issues” additionally featured a poem by Eva H.D., however you had already built-in poetry into your work with the Alexander Pope piece from which “Everlasting Sunshine of the Spotless Thoughts” will get its title. And poetry is the DNA of “The way to Shoot a Ghost.” How does that change your filmmaking course of?
Eva H.D.: Did you do it as a result of poetry is a moneymaker?
Kaufman: Yeah, that’s what I hoped for. [Laughs] I don’t know. I actually like Eva’s writing. Once I was attempting to assemble that character in “I’m Considering of Ending Issues” and the concept that she was continually being reimagined by the Jake [Jesse Plemons] character, I needed a type of iterations to be a poet. I requested Eva if I may use one among her poems for that. For these motion pictures, the 2 we did collectively, “Jackals” and this, it’s a possibility once I’m doing a brief movie, which I hadn’t finished earlier than, to attempt to do one thing that’s not conventionally narrative. It’s a problem for me. How do I do that, and what can I visually contribute to what’s written?
You shot this film in six days in Athens, however it looks like a montage cutdown of a a lot larger movie. You’re operating all around the metropolis. How did you condense the fabric?
Eva H.D.: At one level in modifying, we reduce nearly every part out, simply to see what we may put again in.
Kaufman: We had two totally different cinematographers. One was off getting stuff for us, and one was with us doing stuff with the actors, which is type of what we did with “Jackals and Fireflies.” It was a approach for us to get extra footage. Even with two folks, it was lots of work to try this. It was very tough touring round.
Eva H.D.: We went far and wide, very deliberately to locations the place vacationers don’t often go, People don’t often go. Charlie was excellent at mixing. Usually, American movie sorts impose themselves. We didn’t cease visitors; we have been inside it.
Kaufman: There was one shot the place we’re in the midst of the road. It was a last-minute resolution. We didn’t know how you can get this shot, and we have been in the midst of the highway, and there was visitors in all places. It was barely harmful. We couldn’t have stopped visitors if we needed to. We weren’t that type of manufacturing.
Eva H.D.: One of many issues I despatched him pictures of once I was in Athens and he wasn’t in the beginning was this bizarre scorching canine stand that’s midway to nowhere. It’s very a lot in the midst of nowhere, and Charlie fell in love with it, and it’s in our movie. It’s a cantina.
Charlie, had you stayed in contact with Jessie Buckley about doing one other challenge after “I’m Considering of Ending Issues”?
Kaufman: You at all times wish to work with Jessie. She’s a tremendous particular person to work with. We definitely talked about issues since then, after which this got here up, and he or she was obtainable.
How did you land on the character having blue hair? You’re reminded of Kate Winslet in “Everlasting Sunshine.”
Eva H.D.: That was [Jessie]! She purchased that for 10 quid.
Kaufman: She mentioned, “What if she had a blue wig?” She mentioned, “I discovered this factor on-line.” She purchased it, and he or she styled it. I can’t make choices primarily based on issues like that [such as the connection to “Eternal Sunshine”]. Individuals have decided that I fixate on sure issues as a result of they’re by chance issues that occur. Right here’s an instance as a result of it’s meaningless: That I solid Jesse [Plemons] and Jessie [Buckley in “I’m Thinking of Ending Things”] as a result of their names are the identical, and I used to be making some remark. No! It was [originally] Brie Larson and Domhnall Gleeson. They each couldn’t do it. I had no thought who Jessie Buckley was on the time. I known as a pal of mine, a manufacturing designer, and mentioned, “I want any individual for this function.” She was working with a director in England on the time. I seemed on the “Beast” film [she was in], and mentioned, “OK, I need this particular person.” And I acquired her.
Eva H.D.: She at all times manages to channel one thing protean and anarchic.
Kaufman: And that was the audition for [“I’m Thinking of Ending Things”], the poem “Bonedog.” She recorded herself and despatched it within the subsequent day, and it was like, “Holy shit.”
What about Josef Akiki? How did you solid him?
Eva H.D.: Each Charlie and I went to this factor in Greece known as Oxbelly, which isn’t a residency [but a writers’ retreat]. At Oxbelly, Charlie and I did a chat of kinds on poetry and movie, a rambling dialog we had. Afterward, this man, Ahmed Hussein, who’s a Lebanese filmmaker, chatted with me as a result of he appreciated it. I acquired his quantity, after which after we have been seeking to solid this movie, there have been totally different individuals who have been recommended however most of them have been second-generation folks with culturally Arabic backgrounds however they have been German or American, or they have been French. It simply appeared flawed for this character to be performed by somebody like that. I wrote to Ahmed and was like, “Do you’ve gotten any good Lebanese actors in thoughts?” He advisable three folks, and we watched them, and cherished Josef.
Using archival footage helps inform the story of the altering nature of town, the place Greek locals have been pushed out by tourism and gentrification. Native folks can’t afford to reside there anymore.
Eva H.D.: A few of that archival footage is associates’ dwelling movies. I simply requested everyone and their mom, “Do you’ve gotten something?” We discovered a treasure trove of great materials.
Charlie, is there extra nervousness or liberation within the short-film format versus a characteristic? The life cycle of a brief movie is much less conventional. Does that have an effect on your outlook?
Kaufman: I couldn’t make this as a characteristic. I can’t even make the options that I write which are extra narrative. It’s very tough to get financing. It’s simpler to get financing for [a short], however the draw back is that nobody is ever going to make any cash on it. It’s a must to piece collectively financing. I don’t want, like in “Jackals,” there have been no film stars. We occur to have Jessie on this, which is nice for us, as a result of she brings a lot to it. There are all kinds of equations whenever you’re casting a characteristic to get financing. This one that is of this worth, and it’s rubbish. I don’t should cope with that for a brief. It’s lots of work. It’s not prefer it’s much less work. We’ve been engaged on this eternally, and there’s no payoff.
Eva H.D.: There may be!
Kaufman: There may be, you’re proper. However you’ll be able to’t make a dwelling. You lose cash making a brief. You’re nonetheless placing within the time…. We’re right here at this pageant, however we’re so below the radar right here as a result of nobody cares about shorts. Then, kind of how terrible and ostentatious every part is that surrounds us, I really feel grateful that I don’t should take part in that.
Charlie, you’ve gotten a few different tasks within the works. There’s an adaptation known as “The Reminiscence Police” from a Yoko Ogawa novel, and one other known as “Later the Battle” with Eddie Redmayne and Tessa Thompson, impressed by an Iddo Gefen story. There was a report earlier this 12 months that “Later the Battle” was going, however then shut down. What’s the standing of both of those?
Kaufman: We’re engaged on getting [“Later the War”] going. We needed to rethink it. I don’t know what to say about it. We’re nonetheless engaged on getting it going, and I’m hopeful, and it’s excellent!
What about “The Reminiscence Police”? With “I’m Considering of Ending Issues,” you used Reid’s novel as an inspiration and a springboard to your personal concepts, just like Jonathan Glazer’s strategy to Martin Amis’ “The Zone of Curiosity,” simply to make use of a latest instance. “Ending Issues” and “Zone of Curiosity” additionally had the identical cinematographer, Łukasz Żal.
Kaufman: I tailored that from a novel, and Reid Morano is directing it. I caught to the guide. There are issues, as you recognize when you’ve learn the guide, that it’s good to work out as a result of they’re type of summary in the best way it’s described. However [my screenplay] follows the guide.
There was that New York Occasions listing of the 100 finest motion pictures of the century earlier this 12 months, although I used to be disenchanted “Synecdoche, New York” didn’t make the reduce.
Kaufman: It was on there, on the submit listing, however it was like #493. Not that I bear in mind! [Laughs] They’d the 100 finest, after which that they had also-rans, and out of that, they went out to 500, and I simply slipped in.
That film has solely grown in esteem over time. How do you are feeling about the concept that it’s a movie that wanted time to be appreciated?
Kaufman: The Academy was doing a Philip Seymour Hoffman retrospective, and Spike [Jonze] introduced the movie. I wasn’t in a position to make it. It was divisive when it got here out. There have been individuals who cherished it, and individuals who completely hated it — most particularly [former New York Observer critic] Rex Reed. For Roger Ebert, it was the most effective film of the last decade.
Eva H.D.: He gave you a mould of his personal thumb!
Kaufman: I’m pleased I made it. I’m proud of the film. It wasn’t useful to my profession as a director, as you can too chart, which doesn’t make me pleased. I’m proud of the film and the folks I labored with. It’ll do what it would do on this planet. It’s out of my arms.
Eva H.D.: Possibly it was useful to your profession as a human being.
Kaufman: I hope so.
“The way to Shoot a Ghost” premiered on the 2025 Venice Movie Competition. The movie will ultimately stream on free library streaming service Kanopy.