It’s an experiment that shouldn’t work. A function movie shot solely via the standpoint of a ghost (or “Presence,” because the title signifies) who watches a household of 4 (Lucy Liu, Chris Sullivan, Callina Liang, and Eddy Maday) transfer into a big suburban dwelling and over time witnesses their most intimate and disturbing moments, as a supernatural thriller begins to bubble beneath the floor.
Director Steven Soderbergh, higher than anybody, laid out why a completely POV digital camera doesn’t work for narrative storytelling when discussing first-person VR motion pictures again in 2022. Mentioned Soderbergh, “[That] there’s no POV and reverse angle on a personality who’s experiencing that is vastly limiting. That’s how we interact with visible tales, is to look at the expressions of the characters in order that we are able to learn the feelings of what we’re experiencing.”
However two years later, Soderbergh did make it work, and whereas he was a visitor on this week’s episode of IndieWire’s Filmmaker Toolkit podcast, the “Presence” director/cinematographer/digital camera operator/editor mentioned how he was in a position to flip the formal conceit into an attractive, bracingly intimate, and thrilling chamber piece that hits theaters tomorrow.
The next interview was carried out again in September 2024 and has been condensed and calmly edited for readability. You can even learn what Soderbergh stated on the podcast about his current facet initiatives: writing a ebook on “Jaws” and remastering his movie catalog in 4K HDR.
IndieWire: The place did the thought for this film come from, my understanding is you guys had an expertise in your Los Angeles dwelling?
Steven Soderbergh: Yeah, we had a home sitter, and she or he described seeing somebody on the finish of the hallway crossing from the toilet to the bed room whereas she was watching TV on this type of parlor space. And she or he instantly known as out with out considering, “Jules!” [Soderbergh’s wife Jules Asner] after which realized, “Jules isn’t right here. That’s why I’m home sitting.” And so she known as us and relayed that. And we’d had some very low-level questionable issues: “Did I actually go away that gentle on?” “Was that door open?” Stuff like that, however nothing we felt scared by.
What we found was somebody had died in our home, and there have been questions in regards to the circumstances of this individual’s loss of life, and a few of our neighbors speculated that, although the police had dominated it a suicide, that it was not a suicide. And so our idea grew to become that it was that girl that our buddy noticed on the finish of the hallway, which lined up with the age of the one that had died in the home.
So I started to simply marvel what it could be prefer to be this spectral determine that was rooted someplace in the home and needed to witness any individual else coming into their home to reside and what that will be like. So I generated just some pages to explain the directorial strategy. I described the lens at a sure peak and that you simply felt that you simply had been in some type of standpoint, however you had been solely in a position to intuit this by what the digital camera was selecting to have a look at and the way it moved. I’d laid on the market’s an actual property individual [Julia Fox] that involves get the home prepared, after which this household is available in, there’s 4 of them, and that there’s some problem with the household. That’s all I had after I gave it to [screenwriter] David Koepp, and he learn it and stated, “I do know precisely what to do with that.”
So, from the beginning, did you see this being shot within the first individual?
Soderbergh: Yeah. And what’s enjoyable about that’s each the simplicity of it, the truth that it dictated that every scene needed to be a single shot, and likewise it’s an actual film thought within the sense that it may’t be a ebook, it may’t be a play, it’s gotta be a film. It’s a conceit that solely works as a film. And people are enjoyable when you could find them.
After I began to study filmmaking, I bear in mind being proven “Woman within the Lake” and the way this first-person digital camera doesn’t work — that in order for you such a subjectivity, you’re going to want the reverse, you’re going to should see their response. And that’s one thing I do know you made related feedback about because it pertains to VR.
Soderbergh: Sure, properly, that is an fascinating level that you simply raised, as a result of the explanation I believe it does work in “Presence,” and why it doesn’t work sometimes, is precisely what you’re speaking about. Sometimes, in a traditional POV movie, our primal want to see the face of the protagonist is, I believe, inescapable. Such as you simply at a sure level, if you understand it’s somebody’s standpoint, you need to see who that individual is, which is why I consider after a sure level, you simply faucet out and also you’re pissed off. [In “Presence”] the truth that the viewers is aware of virtually instantly that the standpoint shouldn’t be coming from an individual that’s alive [it’s the Presence’s POV] instantly removes this curiosity in a reverse as a result of they know there’s nothing there. And that’s why I believe the movie finally can work is as a result of we’ve pulled out that want to show round.
[Editor’s Note: Soderbergh, under the pseudonym Peter Andrews, was both the cinematographer and camera operator on “Presence.” He’s performed both duties on his films dating back to the 2000s.]
One factor I wished to speak about which is constructed into this conceit, is the digital camera working as a result of, to a sure diploma, that’s discovering the character, proper?
Soderbergh: Oh, yeah.
May you speak about that, as a result of I’ve to think about that’s the continued filmmaking problem you needed to uncover whereas filming.
Soderbergh: Yeah, it’s the problem. It’s additionally actually enjoyable, as a result of like I stated, the principles are very, very clear. Let’s begin with the tools. So we shot on the Sony A7 [Editor’s Note: The Sony A7 is a small, relatively inexpensive camera]. I used the smallest of the Ronin stabilizers — it’s two handles that type a type of Y that connects to the digital camera. So, I’m holding it about chin peak in entrance of me.
And one of many causes that we tried as a lot as potential to shoot in sequence was I wished to indicate how [the ghost] learns how to have a look at issues because the story progresses, and with a purpose to try this, I needed to undergo that studying course of too. You’re breaking it right down to little issues, like when you have a shot and any individual begins to maneuver they usually’re going to go away body, how anticipatory, or not, can I be in a pan to carry them? Ought to there be a bit little bit of lag time as a result of it doesn’t know when persons are going to maneuver? Then again, there are scenes that I felt demanded actual choreography between the digital camera and the forged simply to maintain it feeling like a film, and so I used to be discovering that as we’d shoot. There can be takes, sadly, typically among the longer takes, the place I’d get to the tip of it and simply go, “I can do it higher. I screwed up.” Like I made a selection and it was the incorrect selection, we acquired to do it once more. Nevertheless it was all actually fascinating.
Once we take into consideration digital camera working and doing one other take to get it proper, it’s often about discovering the precise velocity, the framing, and so on, and I’m positive that’s a part of this, however what’s fascinating to me after I rewatched the movie final night time is there’s a efficiency within the digital camera working. Your digital camera operation is the main technique to categorical what’s occurring with the character, proper?
Soderbergh: Properly, precisely. What it chooses to emphasise when it will get shut, when it decides to maneuver away. You’re proper, that’s supplying you with details about what it’s, as a result of that is the query that’s posed instantly as quickly as you perceive what this visible conceit is: Who’s it? And the solutions to “who it’s?” are in what it’s interested by. So making an attempt to suppose that means, since I knew, as a result of I learn the script, what would that individual do? What would they be interested by, given who they’re on this state of affairs? However throughout blocking and rehearsing, earlier than we began rolling, I’d check out issues and really feel like, “No, that’s tipping it within the incorrect means.” I need to offer you clues, however I need to hold it in order that the reveal on the finish is surprising, we hope it’s.
No, the tip labored on me each occasions I noticed it — however we’ll keep away from spoilers right here. Was one shot per scene, with no modifying inside a scene, only a rule that you simply didn’t need to break as a part of the Presence POV conceit?
Soderbergh: It appeared to be a really primary rule that you’d be violating. So, in essence, it gave me one of many easiest instruments on this planet, which really helps with the storytelling, which is slicing to black. So I’m positive seeing it the second time you observed that I’m giving clues about how a lot time has handed by how lengthy the black is between the scenes. Generally they’re very quick, which signifies it’s virtually a soar minimize, which implies, “Oh, it’s been 20 minutes.” After which typically they’re longer, and also you understand, “Oh, days or even weeks have passed by.” And I really like the truth that one thing that prices no cash, which is simply black, turns into a instrument. That’s actually necessary in orienting you within the narrative.
In motion pictures, we’re very used to getting access to a personality’s non-public moments, to non-public ideas typically. And, there’s one thing fascinating — and I’m questioning if it’s one thing that you simply got here to phrases with or encountered modifying the movie — in these non-public moments of disgrace or feeling like your life is falling aside, it’s a bit bit totally different experiencing that from an invisible first individual’s POV. Films have all the time been voyeuristic, however there’s one thing totally different right here in what it feels prefer to expertise that non-public second than in a “regular film.”
Soderbergh: Yeah, there may be, and I don’t know what to attribute it to. It could possibly be our inherent nosiness and want to see, to pierce the veil of one other individual’s exterior persona. I don’t know, however there’s one thing. The film turns into, as you start to begin to put it collectively, it’s so relentlessly intimate. Such as you stated, you actually really feel like what the household goes via is excellent in your lap, and in Park Metropolis [the film premiered at Sundance 2024], we had a pair individuals go away at a sure level within the movie as a result of I believe that escalating sense of dread, and also you do start to know at a sure level [the Presence] could be very fixated on the daughter [Callina Liang], and it seems like one thing dangerous goes to occur to her. And so, the truth that you’ll be able to’t look away, there’s nothing to look away from, I believe for some individuals, after they felt, “Oh, I simply can’t.” I noticed individuals rise up and go away, and I used to be like, “That’s not how you allow to go to the toilet.”
I believe a part of it’s in a traditional film, we’re anticipating to have this privileged standpoint, this omniscient viewer factor, and there’s something – and possibly it’s even in your efficiency within the digital camera working because the Presence– however there’s a sense of, “Ought to I be watching?” There’s occasions the Presence seems like they should look away. Perhaps we’re extra conscious of it as a result of we’re seeing it via somebody’s eyes, and it seems like we shouldn’t be wanting.
Soderbergh: Yeah, and that was that was necessary as properly. It’s an necessary character trait. It’s a clue that the Presence does appear to have some consciousness. Not of guilt, however of propriety, and that there are issues that it doesn’t need or must see. I felt that is necessary to indicate as a result of it’s one other piece of the puzzle. I believe to your level, it’s our type of inherent voyeurism that now we have as human beings. To my information, animals don’t search out having the ability to spy on different animals that they don’t need to eat. That is one thing that’s particular to us, which is that this want to know a secret, and to see one thing that’s in any other case hidden. It was an enormous half, clearly, of my first movie [“Sex, Lies, and Videotape”], what that type of impulse can do to an individual if it turns into distorted.
What about this POV made you select to shoot with such a large lens?
Soderbergh: There was a bit little bit of testing to see which lens would work greatest first. First, there’s the difficulty of what lens most intently represents your standpoint in day-to-day life. And I checked out that, and I assumed, “No, I need to be a bit wider.”
I didn’t need to go into one thing that felt too distorted, however I wished it to be extensive sufficient that you simply actually felt it once you had been shifting via area, that it actually was enveloping once you went via a doorway or up or down the steps. So, we ended up utilizing a 14mm prime on the [Sony] A7, that simply appeared proper to me. Individuals may get near it with out turning into cartoons. However, if you happen to had been within the nook, you noticed the entire room, and I wished that.
You considerably already answered this, however I need to simply revisit it from a distinct angle. So, you went into this movie considering, “OK, this rule, of why a purely first-person digital camera doesn’t work, works right here due to this ghost conceit.” I’m questioning, after the method of constructing this movie, if you happen to nonetheless really feel as adamant about that, would you be open to this working in one other, non-ghost sense? Or is your movie the exception that proves the rule?
Soderbergh: I nonetheless suppose that holds, and I don’t suppose we’re an exception to the rule. We adhered to the rule by eradicating the protagonist. I nonetheless maintain that there’s a restrict in “regular circumstances” to how lengthy individuals will keep locked right into a first-person POV with no reverse.
When you haven’t but, it’s best to take a look at “Nickel Boys.” It’s actually fascinating the way it used POV.
Soderbergh: Oh, I’ve heard. Yeah, I need to see that.
Final time we spoke, you advised me that your lighting bundle was right down to a 12-inch by 12-inch LED panel. Are you continue to that stripped down?
Soderbergh: Not as a lot, and we needed to do some stuff on this, particularly for the night time scenes, I wanted to have the ability to choose up issues outdoors the window, and so we had some precise film lights. Which is all the time — I all the time get into a really fascinating dialog with the gaffer, even after I’m conscious we want these lights, I’m all the time ensuring that there aren’t too many. And so, yeah, this was edging extra towards a traditional shoot. When you drove by the home whereas we had been taking pictures at night time, there have been lights up throughout the home.
That’s partially why I used to be asking, after you stated that about solely utilizing the 12-inch LED, after I’ve watched current motion pictures of yours, I’ve been like, “Oh, OK, I can see that.” However then this one, I couldn’t determine the way you’d be balancing these large home windows and this massive area. I couldn’t think about you had been taking pictures this complete film at particular occasions of day to get the precise gentle.
Soderbergh: Really, we did that so much. The opening shot of the movie by design is captured [at dusk]. [What is in the movie] was the final usable take, after that it’s too darkish. I wished that absolute fringe of the tip of the day. It was a bit nerve wracking since you’d suppose it’s type of a easy shot, there aren’t any actors in it, I’m simply shifting the digital camera via the home. However we knew the window [to shoot] was a few half-an-hour, and I used to be on take 5 and never glad. It’s getting darker, and I’m like, “I higher get this one,” and take six labored. However the schedule was inbuilt such a means that there are three or 4 scenes that happen at that type of magic hour nightfall second that had been designed to be completed [with shooting for the day] at the moment over the course of days. I actually wished to reap the benefits of the truth that it’s a small movie. It’s a low-budget movie. There’s not an enormous distinction between 9 days and 11 days once you’re at that stage.
To listen to Soderbergh’s full interview, subscribe to the Toolkit podcast on Apple, Spotify, or your favourite podcast platform.